Wednesday, June 13, 2007

Axis of Evil?

Don't mean to be preachy. Would be quite hypocritical coming from the biggest "flip-flopper" in the universe on the subject of the most recent conflict. But dear God, enough already. Take a minute, say a prayer, send vibes, whatever might influence those who are supposed to listen the voice of reason on all sides. Maybe it needs to be louder.

LINK And scroll to Sat. June 9th post, follow the link to daddytypes to get the backstory.

[Thanks Kevin (www.kevincharnas.com) for making me aware]

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21 Comments:

Blogger TWORIVERSWALRUS said...

Sadly, I don't see an end anytime soon.

2:20 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

There can be no end. Compassion requires empathy. Both are lacking in this abomination. The truth is so blurred and buried that this hideousness will end with a whimper when all involved tire of it and drain it of all it's worth to their personal interests.

And by thinking this way, we're all "unpatriotic."

We'll be apologizing for this one to so many future generations... "well, we just didn't know how to stop it..."

Auschwitz and Dachau? "We just didn't know."

In some ways, this is worse... because of photos like that one.

We know.

Ask Cindy Sheehan what vocal protests get you. "Unamerican b*tch!" "I bet your son is glad he's dead." Abhorrent behavior.

That photo needs to be on the cover of every media outlet available.

10:49 PM  
Blogger TWORIVERSWALRUS said...

Awesome comment!

10:36 AM  
Blogger Gregonzola said...

By "The world' biggest flip-flopper," are you referring to yourself? Maybe you, like most people, used to support this war, and you've changed your mind. Maybe you even voted for Bush in 2004, but now you wish you hadn't.

GOOD.

We were LIED TO by every member of Bush's cabinet. For months. It's not your fault, or the fault of the American people, that we're in this nightmare. We're supposed to believe our government. Maybe not about everything, but about the REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS, like say, WAR, they're supposed to tell the truth. But now we realize that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are MONSTERS. They are animals, and they should be locked up like animals.

11:41 AM  
Blogger Saint Nick said...

A little something from the peanut gallery... A question that keeps coming up in my mind is....If not us who? Surly we agree that someone needed to do something about Saddam. The man was a modern day Hitler. The UN should be the first to step up in a situation of this type. Unfortunately that did not happen. So we as a country we had to decide whether we were going wait it out or do something to stop it. All but a handful of our elected officials agreed to use force to take him down. The excuse that some slow talking Texan tricked virtually the entire House and Senate into voting for something they did not intend does not hold water. We as a country are in this and it appears it is going to take longer than we expected to finish it. But does it make sense to leave before stabilizing the situation.
As for being lied to by our government…..surly you have to expect it by now.

9:30 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

Whoa boy...

While, believe it or not, I do respect the ROOT of where St. Nick is coming from, I cannot help but resoundingly point out how severely he has missed the crux of this post and it's follow up comments.

Barring all "we have to police the world" rhetoric, the evidence Erin so profoundly presented in her post is plain. There is human suffering involved here and the facts and history in this case all point to said barbaric toll being utterly without valid logic or reason. This is why this tragically flawed ripple in US History causes so much division and disgust.

And I'm afraid you're "better them than us" angle rings so selfishly baleful that I have trouble even processing your message.

These "enemies of freedom" are fathers and mothers and sons and daughters, families, Iraqi families shredded into, if they're lucky, refugee status.

As I said before, compassion requires empathy. I see neither in your post, sir.

And before you play the "party" card, I secretly share a great deal of values with the Republican party and have voted local and state candidates of said side of the aisle before... so please...before you label me a namby-pamby, liberal, tree-huggin', baby-killin' commie... let's just put than on the table.

(by the way, I truly didn't mean for this response to come off as vitriolic as it did... I have failed as a vulcan and shown my true colors as a flawed, emotional human...my bad)

11:43 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

Wow...

And now that i've clicked your profile and discovered that you are an ex-classmate of mine, i really feel like an asshole.

Sorry dude, really, I didn't mean to get out the samurai sword like that on ya'...

Just not a fan of the current situation.

As members of my family are prone to saying, "don't get him started."

11:49 PM  
Blogger Greg said...

Saddam was a monster, and it's good that he is gone. Nick, just be sure to remember this-- Saudi Arabia, China, and many other places are run by monsters, and our President happily allows them to do as they please, as long as our financial interests go unimpeded.

As for "you should expect" lies from the government, well, sure. I guess what's more important is that so many people KNEW they were lies, SCREAMED for MONTHS that they were lies, PROVED BEYOND QUESTION that they were lies, and still the press did nothing but cheer for the warmongers. Any dissent was promtly squashed.

Iraq was a country that posed ABSOLUTELY NO THREAT TO US and had NO TIES TO AL-QUAIDA OR 9/11. Now we have torn that country to shreds, killed, maimed and tortured thousands of its innocent citizens, and we are shocked -- SHOCKED, I tell you -- that they aren't more grateful.

Please, Nick, don't be fooled by our vampire-in-chief. We need to get out.

11:07 AM  
Blogger TWORIVERSWALRUS said...

Saddam was a bad man. No one will argue that point. I cry no tears that he is no longer in power.

But let's be honest here. He kept his country in line. Hell, other Middle Eastern countries were scared of him as well. He may not have been good to his people. But he was an effective leader. For his area of the world, his type of leadership worked. Yes, we here in America think he was barbaric. But that's because we try to apply our own ideals to another country. That simply doesn't work.

Greg is absolutely correct. We as a nation have no problem with several other tyrants around the world. But we focused on Iraq for some reason, while letting the other horrible leaders off the hook. Iraq posed no threat whatsoever to the United States. The "reason" for going to war was the alleged threat of WMD's. Not only was their no WMD's, but we provided no proof of such weapons prior to the invasion.

Does anyone remember when Colin Powell addressed the United Nations with his "proof?" What did he provide? NOTHING! He had a few grainy photos which he speculated MIGHT be rolling laboratories. There was no proof at all.

Powell's speech to the U.N. was designed to argue in favor of joint military action against Iraq. But based on the lack of any proof whatsoever, the U.N. flatly rejected the idea.

Yet the U.S. took a "we're right - you're wrong" approach to the situation, and chose to attack anyway.

In the end, we were wrong - dead wrong. It's now been revealed that Powell himself was highly skeptical of the evidence presented to him. Powell has since stepped down, and refers to his U.N. speech as "a blot on my record."

Nick points out that this war is taking longer than expected to finish. Indeed it has. Is there an end in sight? Honestly, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Personally, I think the administration has no idea how to end it. So they continue with the status quo.

I'm convinced that in time, public sentiment will force a U.S. withdrawl from Iraq. It probably won't happen until the next administration though. Then what will happen to Iraq? A civil war will ensue, and some evil tyrant will eventually force his way into power.

When we reach that point, we will have come full circle. Nothing will have changed - only the name of the new tyrant.

And at what cost? See the original photo, and multiply it by about 75,000. (Thus far)

12:05 PM  
Blogger mimikatemom said...

Thanks you guys for adding your thoughts... I am somtimes ashamed that I can so easily turn a blind eye to what's going on in the world when my life gets just a little tough. I'm hanging on every word and reconciling you're thoughts to my opinions. Please continue....

(I have shoddy internet access lately...)

12:24 PM  
Blogger jennifer said...

"THOU SHALL NOT KILL"

3:55 PM  
Blogger Saint Nick said...

Jeff, Gregg, and Burt,

Thank you for your thoughts. I disagree.

The Middle East has been a virtual war zone for well over 600 years. When they were doing it with rocks and rifles, I agree we should not get involved. Turning a blind eye to the killing was understandable. But in today’s day these tyrant driven countries now have the desire and means to control weapons that can end the world. This is where we, and the rest of the civilized world needs get’s involved.

Belief that Saddam had or was close to developing WMD is not something the George W Bush and his buddies came up with to get some oil.

In October, 1998 Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act. This act appropriated funds to Iraqi opposition groups in the hope of removing Saddam Hussein from power and replacing his regime with a democracy. This didn't work

In December 1998, Clinton carried out Operation Desert Fox. A two week long bombing campaign to "degrade" Iraq's ability to manufacture and use weapons of mass destruction. This didn't work.

Saddam had numerous opportunities to comply with the UN. He chose not to. At that point, the war was something that had to happen whether it was George W Bush, Al Gore, or John Kerry. The question is would either of the later have had the conviction to see it through?

4:13 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

So then, Nick, by that rationale...

Iran soon?

Syria next?

Egypt?

Hell, the real threat, by that train of thought, is actually Isreal. They, for all standard purposes, HAVE functinal nukes. (and this is coming from, of all people, a Jew)

I guess my point is where do we stop it? Where does it end? If this is the can of worms you and your chosen President wish to open up, how far are y'all TRULY willing to take it? Leave the entirety of the middle east and portions of Africa and North Korea in flames???

This is where the confusion lies for me... I can't speak for anyone else.

By the way, how ya' doin? You probably don't remember me too well but shit, man, your antics at ole' LB Clarke used to crack my ass up.

5:18 PM  
Blogger Greg said...

"A two week long bombing campaign to 'degrade' Iraq's ability to manufacture and use weapons of mass destruction. This didn't work."

Oh really? So these weapons somehow disappeared as soon as we invaded? Where'd they go?

Remember this?

"We believe Saddam has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
--Vice President Cheney, 3/16/03


This is from George Stephanopolous interviewing Rumsfeld on March 30, 2003:

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, weapons of mass destruction. Key goal of the military campaign is finding those weapons of mass destruction. None have been found yet. There was a raid on the Answar Al-Islam Camp up in the north last night. A lot of people expected to find ricin there. None was found. How big of a problem is that? And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven't found any weapons of mass destruction?

SEC. RUMSFELD: Not at all. If you think -- let me take that, both pieces -- the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.


Of course, they were never found. Even Bush admitted in a State of the Union Adress, "They didn't have the weapons we thought they did."

THEY LIED.
THEY LIED THEY LIED THEY LIED.
NOW COUNTLESS CHILDREN HAVE BEED BLOWN APART OR BURNED TO DEATH AND NOBODY WILL DO A DAMNED THING ABOUT IT.

5:21 PM  
Blogger Saint Nick said...

1998 the Clinton administration officials said the aim of the mission was to "degrade" Iraq's ability to manufacture and use weapons of mass destruction, not to eliminate it.

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was asked about the distinction while the operation was going on: "I don't think we're pretending that we can get everything, so this is - I think - we are being very honest about what our ability is. We are lessening, degrading his ability to use this. The weapons of mass destruction are the threat of the future. I think the president explained very clearly to the American people that this is the threat of the 21st century. What it means is that we know we can't get everything, but degrading is the right word”

My point in posting this clip is to demonstrate that the thought / concern that the WMD were a significant threat were not solely that of the Bush administration. This conflict was compiling for over a decade. The war was and is the next step in controlling what EVERYONE believed to be a very real threat.

After this, Saddam continued to not comply with the UN inspection teams. So the natural assumption would be that he is hiding something. To be dramatic….That something could have been the start of the end of civilization. BIG RISK

In hind sight it appears at this time that the threat was not as severe as EVERYONE thought at the time. So now the politics start.

As for who’s next? Everyone hopes no one. Future leaders may choose to comply with the UN and allow inspections to take place.

6:22 PM  
Blogger Greg said...

Okay, look. First of all, Meff hates Jews. Let's just get that out of the way right now.

Secondly, not EVERYONE thought Iraq was a threat to the US and the civilized world. Not me. Not Jim Hightower. Not Seymour Hersch. Not Robert Scheer. Not Mark Danner. Not the millions of protesters in the US and abroad who were SCREAMING "Don't do this!"

The Pope told Bush this war would be a mistake.

Many in the intelligence community said that Bush would only look at intel that supported his intention to go to war. Some of these people told this to journalists who reported it BEFORE the war, and were marginalized as a result.

Hans Blix, UN Chief Inspector, said that Iraq actually WAS cooperating, but they needed another 4-6 weeks to finish the job. Bush said, "Nope! Sorry! Get out now or you might get a chunk of cluster bomb in your ass!"

Look at what we've done. And REALLY think about it. This should not have happened, and it was avoidable. The Mideast is as unstable as it's ever been, Al-Quaeda's still around, the Taliban's still around. And the US is currently the 3rd least-popular country in the world.

10:14 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

Not so much "hate." More like a wish that we controlled Hollywood, the media, and all the money in the world.

Wait a sec...

We do!

HA!

I'm king of the world!!!!

10:31 PM  
Blogger TWORIVERSWALRUS said...

Nick, let me ask you a question. How do you think this will end? Do you believe that in time, the U.S. will be able to pull out of Iraq, leaving it perfectly safe and stable, with a democracy in place?

8:48 AM  
Blogger Saint Nick said...

Greg……

Allow me to reword....The majority of the decision makers felt this was an extreme threat. Of course there was opposition. But my point is when it came time to vote the majority of House & Congress examined the evidence and voted to authorize the military to forcefully remove him.

Burt……

I have no clue when this will end. I don’t think today is the day and I hope tomorrow will be one day closer. I am sure….whenever it happens I am sure will not be a perfectly safe and stable democratic place. What is that anyway?

8:47 AM  
Blogger TWORIVERSWALRUS said...

Nick, my only point being, I don't think it can be done - at least not in any reasonable timeframe.

Do you have an opinion on how long is too long? Is five years too long - 10, 20?

If it takes 20 years to finish the job, would you be ok with that? In your opinion, would that be worth it?

11:48 AM  
Blogger Saint Nick said...

Burt,

I truly have no opinion on how long this will or should take. You, I and most have never overthrown a hostile regime and stabilized a country. For you or I to sit in air conditioned houses and pass judgment on a topic we have no experience seems foolish.

2:36 PM  

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